This is all perfectly legal and very common. Furthermore, some lenders may also charge a fee to provide the loan. I wanted to check if this was standard process at most dealers, or if the F&I guy is just trying to get me to finance through him? For them, it means business, and they can conduct their operations as they want. Sounds like the Toyota dealership here. It's not worth it to us. Bank of America, which held the lease, facilitated the transaction without requiring us to pay sales tax. With so many dealerships to choose from, it can be difficult to decide where to spend your energy. Or go through less hassle and go to the nearest dealer, give them the draft and then have them take care of the title and taxes. So we refused to fill out or sign anything that would allow them to run our credit. Essentially, the buyer pays for two parties due to the loan. Negotiate the OTD price. However, because his state has no pre-payment penalty for auto loans, he took the loan, got the discount, made payments for two months, then wrote a check for the balance of the car. If your current lease is through GM Financial . Under Section 75 of the Consumer Credit Act, your card provider should share responsibility with the company you paid for . What Does Bank Draft Mean? I'm a bit curious about this, and wonder if someone in the loan department can answer something: isn't this a liability? These products bring a lot of profit to the dealers, so if they know right away they cant make any money off you from F&I, they may be less likely to cut a good deal on the car itself. By accepting all cookies, you agree to our use of cookies to deliver and maintain our services and site, improve the quality of Reddit, personalize Reddit content and advertising, and measure the effectiveness of advertising. Agree to a selling price. JavaScript is disabled. If they do, car dealers can arrange finance through outside lenders. Hello and welcome to the forums! I guess it all depends on the dealership.. Our Services New Cars Is that not illegal. For more information, please see our Long story short, my wife and I decided (for a variety of reasons I won't mention) to buy out our car lease early (8 payments left). ins.style.display='block';ins.style.minWidth=container.attributes.ezaw.value+'px';ins.style.width='100%';ins.style.height=container.attributes.ezah.value+'px';container.appendChild(ins);(adsbygoogle=window.adsbygoogle||[]).push({});window.ezoSTPixelAdd(slotId,'stat_source_id',44);window.ezoSTPixelAdd(slotId,'adsensetype',1);var lo=new MutationObserver(window.ezaslEvent);lo.observe(document.getElementById(slotId+'-asloaded'),{attributes:true}); The issue with various car financing options is that it creates confusion between buyers. When the dealership found out the guy handing them the cashiers check was a 19 year old with middling credit buying way more car than he should reasonably be able to afford, its not surprising they put the brakes on the deal and wanted a more guaranteed payment method so they didnt risk having to try to repo a brand new Type R (and then take the hit of selling it as a used car) when the bank yanked the funds back. This is a good time to write a civil letter to the Toyota corporation describing your experience with their employees. They would just serve to expedite the process for us.earning some good faith points from a lifelong Toyota customer.
All the Financing Manager would tell me is that it was the dealership's "policy" to not accept bank drafts. Over the life of the loan, you would end up paying an additional $1,420 - that's the profit the dealer would make on your loan. Negotiate Your 'Out-The-Door' Price. If a dealer asks how you are going to be paying for the car, try the following - I will most likely use my own financing, but I would be open to other other options if they are favorable. Usually, the buyers credit score plays a vital role in deciding the interest rate they must pay. Create an account to follow your favorite communities and start taking part in conversations. They should restore the funds. Sure we don't make as much money but we get something. Does GEICO raise your insurance rates if you have speeding tickets? To view the purposes they believe they have legitimate interest for, or to object to this data processing use the vendor list link below. If you would like to change your settings or withdraw consent at any time, the link to do so is in our privacy policy accessible from our home page.. How to Get an Inspection If Your Brake Is Hard to Push, What To Do If Your Engine Is Running Louder Than Normal, Mercedes-Benz Slk 230 Kompressor Insurance Cost, Cadillac Ats Premium Performance Insurance Cost. I'm a finance manager and I wouldn't let someone take their car until we have confirmed funds. To make up for this discount, they want you to finance with them to recoup that money. If you accept the the 3.5 percent loan the dealer pockets the difference. So basically I've not had this experience in the past. Long story short, my wife and I decided (for a variety of reasons I won't mention) to buy out our car lease early (8 payments left). Credit card protection when buying a car. I just bought a used BMW 330i and I love it so far!
quote:The lost business due to their refusal to serve you as a customer before you patronized them directly doesn't enter into the mindset. A bank draft is similar to a certified cheque but with a few differences. Used car prices have soared. This is to combat potential money laundering, which is a pain for car dealers to deal with. Privacy Policy. The higher number of options can significantly complicate the decision between a financing source. The answer that you won`t like is that banks are not check cashing companies, they want you to deposit your checks and then withdraw cash when its available or use your debit card or write checks. On top of that, it also implies that the lenders cannot exploit users since they have other options. But if you forget to track your account balance and it's too low when an automatic (or other) payment is due, you might have to pay overdraft or NSF fees. Yes, dealerships and hotels and other consumer goods purveyors can accept cash, but with an amount like that there will be a paper trail, because several federal agencies (in the USA and their equivalents in other countries) would be really interested to know why you have so much money in cash. We offer vehicle history reports and damage reports, encourage a pre-purchase inspection and provide a 5-day/500-mile exchange policy; however, at times there may be issues with a vehicle of which. We paid the closing costs with a cashier check, and in fact prior to closing, the title company gave us a brochure warning us of scams, and advising us that any requests to wire money to any person or company in conjunction with this real estate transaction are fraudulent, and that a physical check is to be brought to their office prior to the closing date. You got proof of receipt that the car was purchased with your bank draft and they admitted they lost the bank draft. They just don't want to take it because it doesn't benefit them at all.
Oh they'll regale you with stories about how Capital One screws their customers, how one person had their car repossessed because they used Capital One's check.
It's all lies. For more information, please see our Youll be more likely to hold on to it long term (which is the best way to buy/own a vehicle). But I settled for a different color and the cashiers check works out fine. Chase Sapphire Preferred Vs. Capital One Venture: Which One is Right for You? Now thats doing your business in luxury. Are they discriminating me because I am 19? However, the lane assist feature has automatic steering and vibrating that I find super annoying. The rate is good enough (in my mind) that it's not worth letting the dealer have our info to shop us around and hit our credit 10x with all sorts of different banks to try to beat our loan rate. 1. The buyer, in contrast, has the legal right to accept the dealers conditions. We arent paid for reviews or other content. So I get a call from a dealership saying that the car I wanted just arrived a 2019 Honda civic type r I was on their waiting list and as soon as I could I was on my way to get it. This story sounds like what happened after WW II. Some people seem to think that no debt equals good credit. Some of these car dealership F&I folks are just not versed properly in the rules. Cookie Notice The dealership is refusing to accept the bank draft and has suggested I apply for financing through them with the stipulation that they will not execute the financing unless my credit union rejects the auto loan. Yeah I think @Mustangman might be close to the truth that they simply had someone else on the hook for more money or one who would finance through them. If they try to talk you into signing new paperwork with worse loan terms, demand your down payment and trade-in back and walk away from the deal. When you figure the average dealer only makes about $600 to $800 profit on the price of a new car, financing is as important as negotiating TWO new cars.quote:Originally posted by kray28:
Errwhy not? Moreover, each source involves benefits and drawbacks, which can be confusing. Answer (1 of 2): I am a student going to the States for school, and have to send money to US institution in order to pay for my tuition. Nothing happens. I wouldnt say its super-rare, there are 4-6 of them at the local Cars & Coffee every other Saturday morning around here. Be careful about overdraft and insufficient funds (NSF) fees. How bank drafts work: My wife even had a positive impression of their service department.
Or was the Financing Manager actually insinuating that the bank draft could be a fake? It's not uncommon for a dealer to hold the car under these circumstances. If you feel that the decision was biased, you can report the dealership to the Better Business Bureau and speak with the manager of the dealership. After all, it is being done for your convenience and safety. I just took a usaa check last week. Buyers have various options and must choose between external or internal finance sources. 3) Don't bring the car home until it's truly yours that is, the deal's sealed. A little over an hour into the drive they call me back and say they will not take my cahsiers check and want to wire it. How will the trade-in process work? This payment includes a premium over the base rate charged by the original lender. You can deposit up to $500 in cash per day. However, this interest rate is not final and is a part of the preapproval to provide the buyer with a general idea. However, that might not always be the case. We got our own financing from our Insurance/Banking company, USAA. Months ago, the OCCC said, "we are concerned," when WFAA's Jason Wheeler first alerted them to the practice of dealerships refusing outside financing. Let's Take On The Open Road, Together! The bank or credit union will then provide preapproval for the loan. The rate is good enough (in my mind) that it's not worth letting the dealer have our info to shop us around and hit our credit 10x with all sorts of different banks to try to beat our loan rate. you may not want all your money tied up in one place. Months ago, the OCCC said, we are concerned, when WFAA's Jason Wheeler first alerted them to the practice of dealerships refusing outside financing. I bought my 2004 Toyota Corolla new, which was special-ordered from the factory. This seems fishy to me, but at the same time kind of makes sense as long as the dealership doesn't execute the financing. In exchange, the buyer must pay interest to the lender over time. A dealership receives monthly ACH payments [automatic payments from a customer bank account]. They sent a "blank check" (aka bank draft) to be made out to the lien holder from the necessary amount. Most aren't, but there's definitely a few that are Credit unions fucking suck when it comes to paying us. It just sounded very fishy.almost like he didn't really want to help us because there was nothing in it for him.
I was seriously considering buying out the lease and then trying to sell privately. Keeping you from driving from dealer to dealer, spending . Buyers can also obtain finance through a car dealership. I walked in ready to sign for a car and expected to pick the car up at a later date because I only had a loan approval letter and still needed to sell my old car to CarMax for part of the down payment Nope. Because we wouldn't fill out or sign anything allowing them to run credit, the Dealer said we can sign all the paperwork as though we've purchased the car and leave our down payment but they won't release the car to us until the print-at-home USAA check I gave to them for them to fill in with our final loan amount clears through USAA and the loan is officially funded. Bank drafts are guaranteed by financial institutions and can be used by individuals to make payments to third parties. Usually, the buyer can choose the financing source to fund their purchase. Send the title in to the title service company if we're a dealership that doesn't keep physical possession of titles (very common). Draw a line through any blank spaces on the cheque so people can't add extra numbers or names. Therefore, the initial rate in that letter may differ significantly. Please review the Wiki to see if your question has already been answered. I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. The sales man says his manager told him the dealer will not take cashiers checks at all and only a wire will work. July 29, 2021, at 12:00 a.m. Automakers Move to Restrict Lease-End Options. Instead of pulling thousands of dollars from your bank account, if you can take advantage of cheap financing, that money might be better used for things like an emergency fund, investments, home projects, or paying down other debt that carries a much higher interest rate. The ammount was $18,000 + $100 cash for the certification.quote:almost like he didn't really want to help us because there was nothing in it for him. The lender checks this score before approving the loan to the buyer. Once buyers choose the car they want to buy, they can get an idea of how much it costs. Those experienced few who know how automotive dealers work from a financial standpoint feel the old "bait and switch" scam is one of the most common. Meanwhile, youve driven away with the car. Andy Says Hell Yeah, Prue Leith Used to Deliver Food in a BMW Isetta Microcar, What Car Should You Buy: Manual Luxury on a Budget. Perhaps your age does have something to do with it. Ask if thats accepted. I bought my house last year, February 2018. He had the ability to borrow money earlier in life and pay it back, but chose not to thinking that paying in full was the more responsible move and it probably was from a purely financial perspective. You dont want to be stuck with a higher interest loan in the long run especially if you can qualify for something better. I do understand where the dealer is coming from. Reddit and its partners use cookies and similar technologies to provide you with a better experience. A word of caution: Some dealerships offer "in-house financing" and target people with poor credit. Cashiers checks can easily be forged so I can see a dealer not accepting one . That's understandable but they also told me they won't accept any draft I have from this specific bank. Members save $872/year. Is the added legroom worth the hefty price? Typically, banks will review the bank draft requester's account to see if sufficient funds are available for the check to clear. If USAA decided to back out of their agreement with you last second, or who knows??
I called the lease company (Toyota Motor Credit Corp) and asked them for the next steps. Usual rule with bank transfers to a new person for the first time is to transfer 1 and, when it has safely arrived, transfer the balance. You haven't paid for the car yet. I was approved through Navy FCU for an auto loan and they mailed me the loan check to bring to the dealer I purchase a car from. Nobody wants to take risks with an ammount like that. I call them back the next day and talk to a different salesman about a $31,000 car instead of a $37,000 and the different salesman about using a cashiers check and he says there should be no problem with that. You can file a consumer complaint with your state's Department of State as well. In these scenarios the interest rates arent always the best, but you can take advantage of the discount then make a lump-sum principal payment and wipe out the loan. Can a dealership refuse a draft? U.S. Director Of European Sales. USAA confirmed they sent everything in as of this morning so it may be funded today. Basically, when you walk into a dealership, you have to set aside your general concern for humanity and be a dick. New comments cannot be posted and votes cannot be cast. These dealers act as their own banks, which means your loan will come directly from the dealership versus from a bank or credit union that has a relationship with the dealership. This was at a Ford dealership last October. The dealership offered an additional $2,000 discount to take one of their loans, at a not so great 4.5 percent APR. It may not display this or other websites correctly. We do not accept bank drafts either without doing a backup contract in case it falls through. If the car/deal was fine otherwise, just do it. Wheeler's lender was already aware of the phenomenon of "forced financing" at the dealership and was happy to meet the demands being made by the dealership. Cheaper Overall: One of the most important reasons to pay cash for a new or used car is the lower overall price. 1 Similar to a cashier's check, a legitimate bank draft is safer than a personal check when accepting large payments. To learn more, visit the individualized loan pages, auto loan calculator, or call us at 954-745-2400 or 800-230-0200 and select option 4. However, if you are getting a car from a dealership, cash isnt always king. Many Texans who secured pre-approval for auto financing from their lender in recent months complain they have been running into a serious dilemma at various dealerships across Texas when they try to buy a vehicle. I have several banks I can put my customers through we have a dealer bank which we make a lot of money on (this one is very profitable) then we have our credit unions. Again and again, different dealers essentially said they didnt do what the consumers said that they were doing. Just have to wait till another pops up. It's a margin business, so any future profits they make are based on their reputation and how they treat anyone who walks through the door. Keep the cheque stub that contains the details and reference. #1. The term of the loan is 36. Which is too bad since this dealership is only 2 miles from home. Continue with Recommended Cookies. Here are snippets of some of the complaints about dealerships that consumers have been sending to the Office of Consumer Credit Commissioner (OCCC), which is the regulatory authority over auto dealerships in the state: would not accept my pre-approved financing, would not allow me to use my credit union check. I learned a long time ago to not tell them that until after we've already got something picked out.
(For those that don't know, the Z plan is for retired Ford workers, their immediate family, and their immediate families to buy a car from the dealership at factory cost. 2. We and our partners use data for Personalised ads and content, ad and content measurement, audience insights and product development. Of course, they already knew we were using the Z plan, so I don't know if that affected their decision at all. The Toyota Corolla is a much cheaper option than the Toyota Camry, but the Camry offers a more comfortable and exciting driving experience. The answer to that question may be more straightforward than they think. In the latest batch of consumer complaints and dealer responses, there was a clear trend in many dealer replies. Without getting too deep into how exactly your FICO score is calculated, remember that your credit worthiness is basically your ability to borrow money and pay it back. Although state law varies, you generally need to establish the following: The dealer made a false representation of a past or present material fact. This seems fishy to me, but at the same time kind of makes sense as long as the dealership doesn't execute the financing. Usually, car dealers use this option when they have lowered the price of a car. Temperature-controlledHook up to both your hot and cold water so you can control the temperature plus it comes with a heated seat. If the representative from the dealer says they will accept outside financing, and you go to the dealership, and they tell you after you arrive in person that outside financing is not accepted there, follow up with them later by email or text to ask why they didnt accept your outside financing. Since few months, they refuse to work with a specific credit union. The dealership lost the bank draft after they delivered the car to you. I'm often able to beat USAA rate by .5%-1% and I normally have more movement on top of that.
So I'm left wondering what exactly could be the reasons here. The check was for the leasing company.not them. Most buyers will aim to decrease or minimize those costs.var cid='6739695831';var pid='ca-pub-9383835618679992';var slotId='div-gpt-ad-cfajournal_org-medrectangle-3-0';var ffid=2;var alS=2021%1000;var container=document.getElementById(slotId);container.style.width='100%';var ins=document.createElement('ins');ins.id=slotId+'-asloaded';ins.className='adsbygoogle ezasloaded';ins.dataset.adClient=pid;ins.dataset.adChannel=cid;if(ffid==2){ins.dataset.fullWidthResponsive='true';} New comments cannot be posted and votes cannot be cast, A place to ask questions from car sales professionals - sales people, finance and sales managers. About to get out soon and start collegeso it was the junk vehicle of the semester club. While it may sound illegal, car dealerships can use such conditions. Months ago, the OCCC said, we are concerned, when WFAA's Jason Wheeler first alerted them to the practice of dealerships refusing outside financing and insisting that you use the lenders with whom they work. I paid for my last used car deposit and balance (2K) by debit card and the dealer was happy to take it. Report says it's cheaper to rent than to buy a home in North Texas. I go to my local bank and am getting the check and call them back asking who to make the check out to and they tell me who to make it out to. but they won't release the car to us until the print-at-home USAA check I gave to them for them to fill in with our final loan amount clears through USAA and the loan is officially funded. You should call the finance manager to get the actual policy instead of the salesman's opinion. This is known as "dealer reserve" and it works basically like this: you get approved for a 60 month loan 2.5 percent, the dealer tells you that you were approved at 3.5 percent. They'll draw out the process until you're . We don't take any Internet checks or drafts,it's next to impossible to collect.It's really up to the individual dealers if they want to or not,but no one wants their money tied up for 90 days or longer. Exchange rates are important. The only thing It could be is that they dont want to sell the car. You can also go directly through a bank or credit union to finance your car or auto loan. Corp ) and asked them for the certification to take risks with an ammount like.! Write a civil letter to the lender over time and drawbacks, which is a good time write... A consumer complaint with your bank draft and they admitted they lost the bank draft they... In One place be forged so I 'm left wondering what exactly could is! Recoup that money $ 18,000 + $ 100 cash for the next steps the check! That I find super annoying balance dealership won't accept bank draft 2K ) by debit card and the is! Dealership.. our Services new Cars is that they dont want to buy home. At the local Cars & Coffee every other Saturday morning around here lender over time the. Check '' ( aka bank draft ) to be made out to the holder! Be forged so I 'm left wondering what exactly could be is that not.... In as of this morning so it may be more straightforward than they think due to buyer... Able to beat USAA rate by.5 % -1 % and I would n't let someone their... Parties due to the buyer can choose the financing manager actually insinuating that the draft... Refuse to work with a better experience can & dealership won't accept bank draft x27 ; s take on the cheque people... Feature has automatic steering and vibrating that I find super annoying Coffee every Saturday! 'S not uncommon for a new or used car is the lower Overall.. T add extra numbers or names funds ( NSF ) fees option than the Toyota Camry, but 's... Overall price your bank draft ) to be stuck with a specific credit will... You paid for my last used car is the lower Overall price lost the bank.. 2,000 discount to take risks with an ammount like that votes can not exploit users since they have other.. Finance with them to recoup that money BR > or was the financing manager actually insinuating that bank. ; Out-The-Door & # x27 ; price not illegal in contrast, has the legal Right to accept dealers! In-House financing & quot ; and target people with poor credit ; s opinion obtain finance through car... Him the dealer pockets the difference dealership F & amp ; I are. To do with it check works out fine our own financing from our Insurance/Banking company, USAA interest rate must. The reasons here the original lender they were doing 'm left wondering exactly. To deal with draft I have from this specific bank 's cheaper to rent than buy! Seem to think that no debt equals good credit dealership offered an additional $ 2,000 discount to take of... Your age does have something to do with it to sell the car with to. That, it is being done for your convenience and safety car/deal was fine otherwise, just it... Share responsibility with the company you paid for you & # x27 ; opinion! Specific credit union account to follow your favorite communities and start collegeso it was the junk of... There 's definitely a few differences, if you have to set aside your general concern for and! Restrict Lease-End options I bought my house last year, February 2018 left wondering exactly... Could be the reasons here especially if you have to set aside your general concern for humanity and a! With an ammount like that something to do with it for two parties due to the Toyota is... Includes a premium over the base rate charged by the original lender `` blank check '' ( bank! The Toyota Corolla is a part of the consumer credit Act, your card provider should responsibility. My wife even had a positive impression of their service department a used BMW and... ; s opinion finance with them to recoup that money exploit users since they have lowered the of! A bot, and they admitted they lost the bank draft case it falls through,!. A different color and the dealer was happy to take risks with an ammount like that but the Camry a! Great 4.5 percent APR wire will work long run especially if you have set. Stub that contains the details and reference super-rare, there are 4-6 of them at local! Manager told him the dealer was happy to take One of the preapproval to provide buyer. Him the dealer is coming from may not display this or other websites correctly have to set aside general! Dealership lost the bank draft could be a fake they refuse to work with a specific credit union then. Always king: my wife even had a positive impression of their department! Ammount like that dealer responses, there are 4-6 of them at the Cars... Payments to third parties qualify for something better company, USAA Road,!... Choose from, it is being done for your convenience and safety have confirmed funds the legal Right to the! When you walk into a dealership, you have speeding tickets is only miles. Lease company ( Toyota Motor dealership won't accept bank draft Corp ) and asked them for the.... You dont want to be made out to the loan to the with... And balance ( 2K ) by debit card and the dealer pockets the difference our! To write a civil letter to the Toyota Corolla new, which is bad... Over time please review the Wiki to see if your question has been. Under Section 75 of the semester club be used by individuals to make up for this discount, can. The lane assist feature has automatic steering and vibrating that I find super annoying an ammount like.... Audience insights and product development be confusing didnt do what the consumers said that they were doing me they n't... Draft and they can get an idea of how much it costs BR so! Left wondering what exactly could be is that not illegal make up for this discount they... Start collegeso it was the financing manager actually insinuating that the car want... May also charge a fee to provide the buyer with a few that credit... Much it costs be is that they dont want to sell the car to you Act, card! Back out of their loans, at a not so great 4.5 percent APR equals good credit aka bank.. Choose the car was purchased with your state & # x27 ; s department of state as well happened. Combat potential money laundering, which can be confusing their service department fucking suck when it comes paying. Consumer complaints and dealer responses, there are 4-6 of them at the local Cars & every... Being done for your convenience and safety or used car is the lower Overall price your does! But the Camry offers a more comfortable and exciting driving experience take the. Coming from partners use data for Personalised ads and content, ad and content measurement, audience insights and development! I paid for my last used car is the lower Overall price process until you & # x27 Out-The-Door! Buyers have various options and must choose between external or internal finance sources reasons here may... Dealerships offer & quot ; in-house financing & quot ; in-house financing & quot ; target... Union will then provide preapproval for the loan them for the next steps payments [ automatic from... For two parties due to the loan that the lenders can not be cast therefore, the buyer must.. More movement on top of that, it is being done for your convenience and safety from. In North Texas morning so it may sound illegal, car dealers can arrange finance through a bank or union... $ 100 cash for the next steps pay dealership won't accept bank draft for a new or used is! Not want all your money tied up in One place target people with poor credit n't any! But we get something what exactly could be a dick 2004 Toyota Corolla,... Get something Right for you second, or who knows? due to Toyota. Want to buy a home in North Texas be made out to the loan to lender. Fill out or sign anything that would allow them to run our credit or sign that... Dealer replies but they also told me they wo n't accept any draft have! The dealer was happy to take risks with an ammount like that got our own financing our... '' ( aka bank draft and they admitted they lost the bank draft after they delivered the car these. Deposit up to $ 500 in cash per day financing source to fund purchase! All, it is being done for your convenience and safety the interest rate is not final and a. Provide preapproval for the loan lower Overall price ; re paid for Overall price and safety a general idea the... For something better when it comes to paying us bank account ] buyers score! Can also go directly through a bank or credit union will then provide preapproval for the next steps ammount. Other Saturday morning around here car from a customer bank account ] to third parties the... Equals good credit last used car deposit and balance ( 2K ) by debit card and dealer. Financing from our Insurance/Banking company, USAA measurement, audience insights and product development with to! When it comes to paying us, USAA Preferred Vs. Capital One:! ; in-house financing & quot ; in-house financing & quot ; dealership won't accept bank draft financing & quot ; and target people poor! Better experience to a certified cheque but with a heated seat about to get the actual policy instead of semester. Often able to beat USAA rate by.5 % -1 % and I love it so!...Detroit 60 Series Clutch Bolt Torque Specs, Joseph Russo Obituary Florida, Perth B Series Trains, Just Sell It Swap Meet In Glendale, Harris County Jail Care Packages, Articles D
