Also little league and some other community services no charge. A group began meeting and praying together in 2011. Almighty God himself being murdered by a corrupt religious cabal in collusion with the Roman military. Then add in the many who are in it for whatever personal gain they covet . He didnt. Catholic Gate-Crasher: Lol. Lowlandseer: I do sometimes wonder if we read the same Bible. and on the iceberg? In my experience, the congregation is generous with gifts to make up any shortcoming. I thought my disgust for James MacDonald was as low as it could go, but when I saw that photo, it took another nosedive. The movie is being produced by Vertical Church Films, a new film-making branch of the Elgin-based megachurch Harvest Bible Chapel, with its estimated $2 million budget underwritten by the. Id call him a bottom feeder but I like lobster too much..So hes lower than that. We will note however, that within the church, the world elder is not only a reference to age, but also a position or office of the church. Honstly, could we get any further from demanding perfection from James MacDonald? Your newfound joy is where I, too, am seeing Gods fingerprints, and why I am holding out hope that my faith will survive. of good testimony with those who are outside (non-Christian) all of this stuff was predicted by the NT. I dont think so. It allows us to pour more money into local ministries and needs as well as overseas ministries. To this day I feel used, abused, and very stupid for not catching on. I havent read the comments, and Im just going to say that seeing a dead bear there with James McDonald behind it made me sick. They deserve each other. Living in what the people of Chicagoland call "the northwest suburbs" theologian Scot McKnight and his daughter, teacher Laura Barringer had a front row seat when things began unraveling at Harvest Bible Chapel and Willow Creek Community Church, and furthermore were acquainted with many of the people who became a part of our daily Twitter and blog feeds about both stories. in the end, its what i think, what you think. You are loved!. And the Christians who took Bibles and Tracts into the theaters for a little Soul-Winning(TM) after the movie had softened up the marks. elastigirl: i take no more stock in what paul thinks than i do in what i think. Dont think our former pastors quite there. Or allowed to keep anything hidden from those who are part of the community? Muff Potter: And if they refuse to see that these guys are nothing more than carnival barkers and mountebanks? (As well as send a message to any possible Dissidents.) I was led to view Clement of Rome as a sort of beloved father in our historical progression. Does it matter if they were technically doing it right if it ends up with a lot of shredded Christians on the other side? This also is so very true! Dallas Jenkins, Like they are so far in and so much of their identity comes from being part of the group that the thought of just leaving would be like jumping off of a cliff? having faithful children If you are insulted because of the name of Christ, you are blessed, for the Spirit of glory and of God rests on you. You should make your case by offering proof. not given to wine Agreed. Dallas Jenkins is the Producer and Director of the largest crowd-funded media project of all-time, a multi-season series about the life of Christ entitled The Chosen. Lets face it, in this era one can access whatever superior teaching is preferred in the comfort of their home or car. So do you think this is something like Stockholm Syndrome? Oh no, we must look to whatever local shcmuck stands in our particular church pulpit and asserts that he speaks for God. Maybe out of kindness because he didnt want to embarrass anyone too much? The way back: 2 Chronicles 7:14 but I dont see much movement in that direction. Why would anyone want to kill a magnificent creature like that? Harvest Bible Chapel Fayetteville. Some might even suggest it seems suspiciously tied to new disclosures concerning films he made, gambling issues which have also concerned both Dallas and his father, etc. So it doesnt really matter what I think, I suppose but what I know has made a huge difference in my life. Then, I started laughing! I struggle to pray, to read the Bible. Dallas Jenkins, Executive Director, Vertical Church Media at Harvest Bible Chapel, and son of Jerry Jenkins of Left Behind fame, tells stories for a living and shares insider info about producing and directing films at Harvest in this session of the Pro Church Podcast. Rich: I think theres a massive problem with the deference thats given to pastors and other religious leaders. Because (my opinion) in many brands of evangelical protestantism, Paul is the absolute gold standard for all things Christian. About how you think there is something wrong with you because you dont feel the same things that they do, and soon you come to believe that you are defective or damaged goods. There have been many people demanding our statements be made public, and now that they are, are rejoicing in that, all while commenting from anonymous online handles. Does that make you manly? Sad. All our campuses gathered together for three consecutive Saturdays of the summer Ravinia style. All three words refer to one position or office within the church, that of the elders. Hang on. Thanks for the reply. It is difficult to not imagine that the overly generous salaries passed out at Harvest have a lot to do with the leaders who refuse to call for the opening of the books. 3/2/2023 - 9:30am-11:30am. But your comment proves you are doing exactly what you oppose. (Amy, thanks for the clarification on Amy/Lauren). ], anyway, its helpful to verbalize & hopefully dialogue). Those who are truly qualified (I think) know they are so in need of Gods favor to consistently live that out and are only barely qualified by what God has already done in them to that point. humans decide who gets to be an apostle, the process of which is surely not unbiased. And your husband whos probably going through a rough one. Thousands came and all seven campuses hosted these spectacular services all at one location! I was there (our kids went there for 2 too long years) and it was unreal what went on during and after that incident. I was then presented with opportunity to post another letter that gives insight without including insulting and painful observations about others. FOR DALLAS JENKINS, telling stories comes naturally. As a Christian, how could they do otherwise? He believes hes entitled, and hes gonna do what hes gonna do, and no bunch of pew-sitting rabble-rousers are gonna get in his way. By the end of the first century there are already offices of bishop, priest, and deacon. During this same time period, Harvest also employed Jenkins' son, Dallas Jenkins, as executive director of Vertical Church Films. TS00: I dont know, if one follows Twitter, there are several who have commented that attended church with JMac in his youth, and they have nothing positive to say about him or his character from way back. Dallas Jenkins: It was given to the elders two months ago. I just found out about it a few minutes ago. GOD SAITH!!!!!. I realize people are suffering from pain and confusion, but now is not the time to be silent. It is the internal nagging I have following Dees post on Friday about JD Hall and Braxton Caner. Yup, there are plenty of great sources of community *outside* of the church. So there is that. now if only you could do it without whining. The key is to have a system where checks and balances are in place. Jesus held onto me and he will hold onto you. what are these things you see in such people that you identify as being grace-filled? They kept +/-$170,000 in credit card payment from campers in the general fund and showed it as revenue. Unless it was a danger to someone. (Warning, men, the money supply may be drying up.). fear of the evil, scary worldly world. not a novice You will find that many commenters have been on similar journeys, who share stories of pain and disillusionment with their church experiences. But as long as theres sin, there will be plenty of work to do to shine a light in the dark places of Christendom. The evidence points to a scam designed to benefit one person only. I have been following this blog for a while but have not commented until now. I am now beginning to wonder if it is not simply the beginning of wisdom. 2 -. You dont even have to be a tyrant to fall for that scheme of the devil. Forget about the so called leaders. Over time, the North Shore church family found they needed a place for weekday ministries. Im sure it depends on the setting and the ministry of the church. Every jot and every tittle is just as if the Almighty is still thundering out of Horeb through Paul. (Stacey Wescott/Chicago Tribune/TNS. TS00: And perhaps we should remember that Jesus did not come to set up authoritative institutions, but to gather his individual lost sheep. And while it is no surprise that these so-called churches, which represent one of the most insidious movements in the history of the Christian Church, are ending in self inflicted destruction we can find some comfort that people who were led astray by them can find solace in other groups of believers who I am sure would welcome them with open arms. We only saw the one tomb. Truth is real. The neocalvinist church where I was an elder, which started off without one big head leader who called himself pastor, and people generally treating people decently, lasted a year or so before the guys found this amazing, godly 5-point calvinist whod been on John MacArthurs staff at GCC and had been a leader in SGMand then he took over and then he brought in his right-hand man from another state to be the leader of the elder team and then those two decided that the elders in place had been given too much unbiblical power over the pastor and so we all had to cede all authority to him and just be good friends without all these unbiblical checks and balances on the man whom the Lord had hand-picked to be over us. You could cold feet and released a scaled-back version instead. LLS, honest question in all of these elder rule setups Ive ever seen, there is no mechanism at all for pew peons to do as you note and hold elders accountable for anything. sober-minded 37 were here. If it werent for the subject matter, it would have been rated X (violence) and denounced by Christians as Violence/Torture porn. What do you make of Luke? Watch Video. We see in Scripture the importance placed upon the need to have elders. he has no tore proof to offer me. Harvest Bible Chapel is one church meeting on six campuses. If not, he served as an elder when he wasnt one and we call that a fraud, And there were boatloads of frauds on those elder boards, How do I know? TS00: perhaps we should remember that Jesus did not come to set up authoritative institutions, but to gather his individual lost sheep. Dallas Jenkins Harvest Bible Chapel. Scary to think that unfaithful leaders can so easily jump from one pond to another. These churches treat women so badly, but promise men all sorts of things (that will probably never happen) to keep the men coming. That argument may not work as there are other factors to be considered. Amy Moore: execs like CFO Fred Adams and COO Scott Milholland going into church consulting are the most dangerous. Samuel Conner: Be imitators of God, as dearly loved children, and live a life of love, even as Christ loved us and gave Himself for us. America needs more Vietnamese restaurants than New Calvinist church plants. This statement just doesnt sound much like what Jesus talked to the twelve about. Oh, they all say how sorry they are, and admit to one degree or another some of the faults of James MacDonald. Sunday services, weekly small groups, other events all give meaning to peoples lonely lives, and the rest is mostly fluff. Like they are so far in and so much of their identity comes from being part of the group that the thought of just leaving would be like jumping off of a cliff? Churches will line up for this. You and the other TWW regulars feel like family. Posted in Theology | Tagged Alpha and Omega, Comparing Myself to Others, Dallas Jenkins, Gavin Stone, God's Sovereignty, God's Will Plan and Priorities, Harvest Bible Chapel, Vertical Church Films | 7 Comments. A shepherd does not own the sheep, but a hireling, responsible to the true owner for seeing after them, protecting them, helping them to make their way to new pastures and safe water when the old become bare. Not only were the target audience all Christians (from the above buyouts), the would-be Soul-Winners went into shock after the intensity of the showing. Making vague accusations like that is true slander. Friend: And you have the same right as the rest of us to post anonymously. He is currently Director of Media at Harvest Bible Chapel in Chicago, where he directed the award-winning short film "The Ride" and is currently developing multiple feature films. JMac should never pastor another church ever and Dallas needs to take a look at himself and why he was chosen for that elder board. Consistent with your recreational activities, you took a gamble and lost. And all of the gold and silver in those Spanish cathedrals was stolen from colonies in Central and South America, where it was mined by enslaved natives, mostly. Restore him to ministry? Ken F (aka Tweed): Vincent is a coward: came to an old thread less likely to be read and didnt stick around to answer for his comment. This is why he has amassed good wealth. Another typo I meant Peter and Paul. I think these gifts are operating as God intended, outside of the systems weve designed and created. Several decades is quite a long time for a good, biblical non-hierarchical to hold on. It was not just Jmac who was enriching himself. He claimed to be a guy who could show people the way. To new commenters Friend: What bothers me about the megas is not just the bad theology and oppression, but the sheer size. Yes, because he delivered the pew what they wanted in a church experience. It was then that the whole sham of our relationship was exposed, and when I rebuffed him he moved on to someone else. My hands STILL shake as I write this the culture was rampant with fear, control and utter mismanagement my archived emails attest to it. Note, I am using my name.. Amen. RadMan7: Credibility has been diminished. I can only guess, but I imagine that JMac and Hybels laid very clever traps, grooming and gradually leading people ever further into compromise and, eventually, outright sin. Still plenty of room on the downside, I reckon. Harvest CEO J Scott Milholland, was one of the men who was responsible for the $10M year secret Black Fund which was used to grossly enrich the top 20 execs at Harvest (including Dallas Jenkins). This is no different then the very worst of false teachers in 2019. Of course, he wasnt qualified for either so I guess that didnt matter. He is already in the process of trying to reboot his digital ministry (WITW)and is romancing wealthy donors in Naples, FL from the $1.2M home in Naples that Harvest rented for him. Youre barking your wares to a wised-up crowd, and unlikely to terrify many here. others have encountered the bright, blinding light (minus the horse, not on the road to Damascus) and heard a voice self-identified as Jesus (including a few people i know). Debby: Check out the Stronger Mens Conference Crony to cronyand I hear you and see it all the timebut to me? of seeing the beauty of the kindness of strangers, the beauty of love and faithfulness, of integrity at personal cost demonstrated by human beings everywhere. I read an article yesterday about small mainstream churches driven to the wall by the migration to the megas being forced to lease their vacant during the week facilities to small businesses in order to generate enough income to keep the doors open. Ive heard the voice of my Savior, There was a letter by Dean Butters that was leaked this past week. I suspect, from many comments of those involved, that there was an actual mafia-like aspect of JMacs control. Many are passionate about their cause, but it is far too often found to be a misplaced passion. ex HCA Staff: Im holding out hope that my faith in God will survive, but truth be told, some days that seems uncertain. you mention they are so far in and so much of their identity comes from being part of the group that the thought of just leaving would be like jumping off of a cliff?. James MacDonald will be starting a new ministry. We have partnered with Grace Theological Seminary and Chicago Partnership to move onward in equipping leaders to proclaim the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Such a man would admit every corrupt money scheme, every trap used to blackmail and extort, every wicked threat and retaliation against those who dared to object and every dollar put to personal wealth building rather than ministering to the lost and needy. Retch, gag, and barf, it gets old, it really does. Dallas, I have news for you. I think Sinclair Lewis was an emotional infant and had a lot more in common with Elmer Gantry than he had the introspection to see. Iowa Steve: Maybe Christianity in all its forms has reached the Tipping Point Where enough believers realize their belief doesnt work for them anymore and Christianity will fade away? Give them what they want in the present, and they wont care about the past. Theyre showing their colors alright. Sorry to hear that he is now masquerading as Santa Claus Ill tell my grandchildren to be on the lookout. birdoftheair: Size, style, structure, statements, staff..have not guaranteed us safe and healthy churches. That was 30 years ago and it proved to be true. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward. Time and again, examples in the Bible show light shinning in darkness. Vincent: It seems that this website is a place where nobodys can act in Gods place as judge and jury. Max: And to link them together as a Body of Christ, each one uniquely gifted to be a part of the whole something the institutional church just doesnt appear to get.Whose job is the ministry?Every believer has a part!When we separate believers into clergy vs. laity, pulpit vs. pew, us vs. them failing to equip and mobilize the saints to do the work of the ministry we miss what God intended for His Church and fall short of living in the Kingdom of Heaven here and now.Jesus talked a LOT about living in the Kingdom we would do well to read His words living in the church doesnt always mean living in the Kingdom.Based on my 70-year snapshot of the institutional church, theres a vast difference in what Christ describes vs. what we have put together in this thing we call church. Conversational-type sermons, contemporary worship music, come-as-you-are. With so much at stake, it can be very tempting to cut corners for the sake of what is viewed as a larger good. Here are some fun and easy strategies to make the most of every moment of your Bible study. These execs like CFO Fred Adams and COO Scott Milholland going into church consulting are the most dangerous. The first service in this new house of God was held on September 10, 1995. We want proof, not opinion, so we can weed out the arrogance from others who believe they know best and will determine what the rest should think and believe. There is no such thing as a single pastor leader role that even exists. If a familys personal pain about a very private matter doesnt fit that category, I dont know what would. So, as you imply, in their heart of hearts they dont really give a big hoot about reading the precious words in red, let alone the rest of Scripture. If GP will cave to SBC outrage over a tweet in order to GET the contract, what else might they quietly cave on for the sake of KEEPING the contract or for getting the next one? with or without religious trappings. The fellowship network of about 120 churches, many of which still have Harvest in their name . Its not as if they have any other choice, as the truth continues to trickle out. MacDonald pulled Harvest Bible Chapel from the fellowship, breaking the link between the two. Because they have no conscience and no moral compass. He was evidently so invested in making the Dramatic Point and leaving a Big Impression that I dont think he considered anyone else at that moment. I am sorry you and your family experienced that. We now see, via ECFA, that these massive personal perks were evidently excluded from their comp review, meaning James has likely been under reporting his income to the IRS by hundreds of thousands a year. This often brings to my mind the movie Bridge Over the River Kwai. My point was to wonder whether part of the problem lies in the theological DNA of the Western-derived traditions. At that time, very little about Dallas Jenkins' problematic theology and other unbiblical issues with The Chosen were publicly known. That included giving James $20K-$30K a MONTH to spend just on T&E. MacDonalds lavish lifestyle drove Thompson to leave the church. If people develop real relationships, they might start talking and could stand up against the abuse. Amen to that Max! ++++++++++++++++++++. *whispers* Its possible it wasnt three years. Churchgoers in 21st century America are just too gullible to keep these folks out of the pulpit. Ill follow up with some details later. If their purpose or endeavor is of human origin, it will fail. really, what im saying is i think we can hold Paul and his comments loosely, just as we hold what others say loosely. We must put our unreserved trust in God alone, and to at least some degree view all men even our most trusted loved ones by their fruits. And he was promoted to the XLT or whatever?? none of that matters now. Moreover, that guy had the temerity to call out Peter at one point, at least by his own account. And of course you. In some cases these elders may be greater in years of living faithfully rather than simply age. Unless, trying very hard to see it from the inside' their vision of God, whom they reckon they were imitating, is more arbitrary, capricious, violent and domineering than mine. God bless your father-in-law. Ive been in churches where folks in the pew worshiped the property more than Jesus! Very useful and informative. They all were making out pretty large with the tithes of people who thought they were giving to good causes. bad things will happen to them, Crazy, huh? TS00: Agreed. The true Body of Christ answers only to Christ, the shepherds/elders as well. My family faced a similar situation years ago. And if the insight and oversight in wisdom and understanding must come from books or online, so be it. Today, CBS Chicago featured Former Harvest Bible Chapel Members Want $72,000 In Donations Refunded, After Pastor James MacDonald Fired Their strong Christian beliefs led Scott and Marsha Thompson to volunteer at Harvest Bible Chapel, and donate more than $72,000 over the course of several years. I was at a Lenten service and helping with confirmation this evening. gentle Dallas Jenkins produced the independent feature Hometown Legend at the age of 25 and shepherded it to distribution by Warner Brothers. If for no other reasons, the statements must be public so that the people of HBC see what their Elders saw. Ive never felt a humbling that felt particularly good, at least short-term. Im going to the training for it in a few weeks. As for Noevangelicals point that no-one on earth is so qualified, that is equally specious. Vietnamese cuisine is good! I dont know if its just that I got old enough and wise enough to start seeing it or cynical and hardened as I got older, but after going through the 1980s and 1990s able to find what I thought were decent churches, for over a decade I havent to find a place that isnt abusive, heretical, led by a narcissist or all the the above. In the history of the church, which is most seductive:money, sex, or power? * Apparently, many of the leaders sent their kids to Harvest Academy and there is fear that their kids will be thrown out of school, is not only true, but lacks the other fact that those of us employees that DID speak up about MANY things, were gaslighted and slandered. Culty. Harvest Bible Chapel Fayetteville. Ive read that the sweet spot in church size, that combines small enough to know the flock (and small enough that all the flock can know the leaders) and large enough to be endowed with a diverse array of gifts is around 300. 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Happen to them, Crazy, huh here are some fun harvest bible chapel dallas jenkins strategies.
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