I do think you have a point. The Book of Nathan the Prophet[6] No, because I dont consider posting pictures in the name of humor a way to win a debate. Late have you come in this debate that has raged over the past decade or so. (But what a nice thread it would make, hint hint). The first sentence relates to your secret, private revelation as to what you think I was saying. Already did: Of course, I know both of you will continue on ignoring these facts, but, now that you have been informed you cant claim ignorance of the subject. Realize that the only place an omnipresent God cannot be is in the heart of those who refuse Him. We call it the sufficiency of Scripture as the Divine Revelation of God. First you assert there is no reason, then you observe it could be done to discredit Catholics. This Teaching ultimately led me into the Roman Catholic Church 25 years later. The only thing that keeps the trolls here is our inability to honestly express gratitude to White for the credit he bestows upon Holy Mother Church and, by extension, us. He has an unhealthy craving for controversy and for quarrels about words, which produce envy, dissension, slander, evil suspicions. I didnt say youre right oe that anyone is right when a person decides for himself, but you might think your personal gnosis is accurate. Muhammad was Constantine and the entire Christian episcopate rolled into one person. Ask yourself a question: have you seriously engaged the study of Scripture, so that you have basic, foundational hermeneutical principles clearly in your thinking? after continuing to escalate when several people asked to tone this down, As you know, all of us Catholics believe in Caritas in all things ). Those photos get in the way of discussion. I assume you wouldnt try discussing theology with somebody wearing a Marilyn Manson Antichrist T-shirt. Likewise, if you use any statement or general observation, there will be an accusation that the surrounding context somehow excused the gaffe, meaning that one has to literally quote every single piece of the entire article, transcript, etc., in ones answer. His arguments appear as a patter of weak hands against the door of the Church, not sure if they are thrusting away or bidding entrance. Without it, theres no ad hominem. Talk about the pictures. Further, most laws we know of in advocacy and argumentation is made-up; yet, that doesnt mean they do not apply. Barry: Without knowing who linked the jamesrwhite.org website to Catholic Answers, any discussion of why it was done is pure speculation. Sola Scriptura is Scripture used as the sole measure of faith. Are. He has authored or contributed to more than twenty four books, including The King James Only Controversy, The Forgotten Trinity, The Potters Freedom, and The God Who Justifies. Oh, no! Puritan Board Junior. So I was finishing up my 21st conference at Covenant of Grace Church in St. Charles when I heard people talking about the coming storm. So I started looking at the weather and my travel plans. refusals by his opponents to address his unassailable points. love God who doesn't love sinners!, Faith is the only And yes, by making them, he IS crying uncle. Its as close to an admission of error as youll ever get with him. I have the luxury of having been personally subject to Whites blatant double standards in an inexcusable way (even his allies concede that he shouldnt have hung up on me), and I suspect that is why Jimmy has opted to make this particular gaffe an example. Was the New Testament Reliably Transmitted from its Authors? To infer such is illogical. _D_R_A_M_A_ _Q_U_E_E_N_. Now you want to say hes judging based on that assumption? That means that I dont think youll find your answers in intellectual debates or discussions. Surrounding the combined motif is a typical Greek pattern that further enhances the visual appeal of the tattoo. Clearly, some of us do misunderstand it, as there are many different understandings of Holy Scripture. We do, we really, really do. Jeff is a World Champion martial artist with 5 Black-Belts. Its almost as funny as the mental contortions of those who try to defend it. There are only two other Foxfiers I have found, and one is on a single, defunct website. The harted you guys show toward White actually proves the very point he wanted to make in posting those pictures. that promised) Hebrews 10:23, Nobody can Bible (Major in Biology, minor in Greek), Grand Canyon College, 1985. Admin Postal Code:92517 Name Server: I thought Roman Catholicism had better answers to offer than that. Esau, that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith Sandy: Ill be praying for you. One loaded up with Dr. James Whites Olde Fashioned Debate Tapes/Fungal Treatment Bands and set on a permanent loop. There were the great prophets Marx, Engels, Lenin, Stalin, Mao Tse-Tung men so far above the human race that they might as well be exalted as gods. Although, given the most recent burst of childishness, Im starting to think that its more likely than I thought. About As awful as it is, what he did shouldnt make anyone else treat him differently. They have revealed themselves clearly. This is a little worse than that time you told that horribly inappropriate joke at worst place and time and everyone looked at you like you were Jack the Ripper or something. if he repents doesnt seem to require us to forgive those who do not repent. Foxflier, I did read Jimmys response to Dr. Whites comments. Theres a huge difference between that and the childish, tantrum-like posting of photos that are an angry lashing out. Status:TRANSFER PROHIBITED We deserve the society full of people who do not know the difference between between what actually occurred with Columbus, Galileo, the Inquisition, and the Crusades. Do Catholics get better seats in heaven than the Protestants? SOURCE: James White - Wikipedia Actually, Id be obliged if you could think of a third option? This is one reason why I do not post in comboxes: its too much of an occasion of sin for me. Yes, but they functioned psychologically in exactly the same way. I admire your charity. I wont mention what else I think you actually are, out of good manners & Christian charity. In this context, it is a weak connection that can be made between Catholic bloggers and Moslem radicals, at best, and an insulting connection, at worst, given the number of christians, both Catholic and Protestants, who are dying by the sword in the Middle East. Good Lord. Therefore, I want to I pray very simply present the events that brought us here. Or may, just maybe, given that hes against ROMAN Catholics, hes refering to Roman Catholics? Are. And how shall they hear without a preacher? Alpha and Omega Ministries On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. I mean, after reading him, i see no real refutation or engaging with his points. Note that it doesnt matter whether or not a person is correct in their attempt to admonish. redefine repentance to mean a And I think his analogy to jihad is an apropos means of expressing it. It has to have sufficient relation to have set it up to do that. There is NO reason for a White disciple to point anyone to Catholic Answers, let alone build up some elaborate hoax to discredit the Catholics here. Does he give account of his ministrys collections and how he spends his time and resources? Dont talk to me about his theological positions or his possible lack of charity in other areas. He who abides in me, and I in him, he bears much fruit; for without me you can do nothing. You must have a funny definition of humor. GOD knows who did it, but one thing can be certain, NO PROTESTANT would go through such extremes let alone steer folks to Catholic Answers.. For all thats worth. Care to address my point or hide behind post counts? But for those who don't know him, he is a world-renowned apologist who serves as the director of Alpha and Omega Ministries, a Christian apologetics organization based in Phoenix, Arizona. *YAWN* Now if it is true that nothing else matters if a person lacks charity, then there could not possibly be something more important to point out to a fellow Christian than when he or she is lacking in charity in some way. You havent read enough historyand by that I mean history uninfluenced by denominational precommitments (Foxes? Is Knowing Jesus the Only Way to be Saved? Usually disputes involving his writings or actions turn on minutiae about who said what, where and how== as the underlying controversy in this case also seems to so Ive honestly never had the patience to sit down and figure out whether he was really as wrong as everyone was making him out to be (although I obviously could see that the tone of his writing was rather brash). I am fond of what talk radio host Dennis Prager holds as one of his key goals on his show: I prefer clarity over agreement. May it be so for us as well. Biblical salvation is a free gift, without works of self-righteousness, and is No such sign was given to the dead hierarchy of Jesus day but the resurrection of Jesus Himself, and it is still the best expression of why primitive, authentic Christianity cannot be equated to a particular denomination. And, by the bye,I am a United Methodist, not Catholic. Eldad and Modad Prove his actions offensive and Ill recant. The Visions of Iddo the Seer Its not a simple domain preemptive registering done by Catholic Answers, nor does it seem to be related to aomin.org (they have their own website, own nameserver, etc.). Thats important. I havent seen anything to substantiate a belief in Scripture Alone, especially since there wasnt a definitive list of authentic scriptures Most of you are practically drooling on yourselves over this. However, no matter how infallible God is, us men are fallible. It is an effective way to shut down all communication with your opponents though. Remember, the body has many members, many gifts. But HOW does he do this? Crowds of faithful followers of Rome had gathered in the parking lot in support of the Charitable Dr. Beckwith, calling for my immediate repentance and adoption of charity Youre not taking the time to read through Whites points, and youre not a simpleton. Well, lets seeby awarding him a casuistry degree, you are accusing him of specious reasoning. Look, it is you Sola Scriptura Protestants that protest that the Bible is the infallible Word of God. without considering that there might, just might possibly be an alternate explanation Unfortunately, his works have some decent conentbut he lacks the general Christian character. how only through the Catholic church can one be saved, by no other means That said, I wouldnt get all worked up over this. Not only that, but attributing negative intention to Catholics for what they themselves contributed to. of Mapname.com customer 3 You insist that it neccessitates the rejection of the FACT that God used the councils to establish the canon of the Church. examine the logical dependencies. I dont care enough to count. Why dont you try to explain it in plain English? Besides being an author, Jimmy is the Senior Apologist at Catholic Answers, a contributing editor to Catholic Answers Magazine, and a weekly guest on "Catholic Answers Live." I was unaware that such a thing implicates the entirety of Roman Catholicism because Im not into committing categorical errors. But I will reveal the truth to you: Its too late to save James White. Phoenix, AZ 85069 Well, then. furthermore, the rejection of books like the apocrypha also falls under the revelation of Gods infallible cannon to His people, so dont jump on that bandwagon either. When a Catholic is open to the idea that perhaps a Protestant was the one responsible for it, he is quick to put it down as a silly conspiracy theory. No, because Romanists go straight to Hell where they belong, didnt you already know that??? An unnamed poster wrote: Take care and God bless, I challenge you to back up your words with evidence showing where Dr. White has always proclaim(ed) victory. To put it charitably. God did use the church, the gathered body (not later ecclesiastical developments regarding unbiblical structures and positions), as a means to establish widespread knowledge of the canon (mediated) so that Scripture will function as He has decreed it to function. There, we finally come to the point Ive been hoping to reveal all along Is the Roman Mass a Propitiatory Sacrifice? A donor and a receiver have a relationship. And I think his analogy to jihad is an apropos means of expressing it. I know that a great deal of technical analysis is left out, here. The material is evil and corrupting and the spiritual is pure and corruptible. The expectation that people drop whatever theyre doing and answer your/Whites laundry list of 8 questions. Also, even the more knowledgeable anti-Catholics will recognize that there is no lack of historical, philosophical, or even Biblical support for Catholicism. Honestly. Just because Dr. White may personally see his pictures as levity and humorous sarcasm, in a Christian sense, he is Jerry, NEVER!!!! Posted by: CareBear | Aug 9, 2007 10:09:37 PM Maccabees (I) He was also a critical consultant for the Lockman Foundation's New American Standard Bible. Couldnt call him out on sloppy usage. A Methodist who thinks that James White needs his mouth and especially his mind, washed out with soap. Whose uncritical acceptance are you referring to? In a pigs eye. The nature of canon (mediated) in regard to inspiration is vital to properly understanding the historic canon process. I was raised Catholic but have been Protestant for over 30 years. Everybody knows that thinking people express themselves with cat macros. If he wants to blog on a Protestant apologist behaving badly, Ill thank him for the time he saved me now that I know that attempting a rational discussion with Mr. White is a collosal waste of time. I think you should read his book The Roman Catholic Controversy and see what Dr. White has to say concerning the development of doctrine. Thank you for finally providing something with which to work. Jeff Durbin is Pastor/Elder of Apologia Church in Tempe since it was founded in February of 2010. [definition from Considering that seven months ago, Beckwith deserved his respect, the quotes seem, well, inappropriate and uncharitable. At some point the one who turns the other cheek wins. I pray that his humility will one day match his obvious intelligence. Or James White who was born several centuries later? Where was the big long post by Jimmy Akin condemning this fellow? That is why I respect him. Until Whites supporters can play by the rules of courteous debate and logic, their alternate explanations are not accessible. Examine the situation with the url did anyone see the White/Pacwa debatejust look at the debates with Pacwa Why should sound DO that? I know Dave Armstrong believes in noting them at least. The Book of the Annals of the Kings of Israel Perhaps you should go look up slander before you come around here trying to slander me. Zack Morgan functions as the pastor of local outreach as well as serving with Pastor Jeff and Pastor Luke as they go about caring for the flock day in and day out. I have a question Matthew, if the Catholic church is salvation through Christ, why must one confess to a Catholic priest to recieve absolution? I think youre grasping at straws here bud, what in the world was the point of that last postto illustrate that I have levied the actions of Akin irresponsible and incorrect before I even posted? The two actions are neccesarily linked in fulfilling the one purpose of God. doesnt seem to perceive the inconsistency of their own message. I havent read the book by Dr. White. People would notice and begin to question a list of bad Christian churches. James White and Jimmy Akin have met on numerous occasions in a variety of formats and frankly it is White who ends up tossing red herrings to avoid dealing with the truth. You level against me that: What is so important about the pictures that they just cannot be taken down? saved without works. You may end up falling in love with several of these designs and ideas in no time! Hence, when you combine all that with an anchor and the alpha and omega, which also attributes to Jesus, it could translate to mean that your beliefs are strongly anchored in the teachings of Christianity. Foxfier, *grin*. 2. When one happens upon a URL that leads direcrtly to Catholic Answers, what is one to assume? Pope Damasus? I am a Christian. StubbleSpark, I get your point, but I would disagree with the word deserve. Putting out a pad of paper for people to share their thoughts with one another is not the same as being willing to be cross-examined. Does an OSASer lose salvation when he converts to Presbyterianism? He united China through conquest, began the Great Wall of China, and had the Terra Cotta warriors built. issue! Check out the Amazing. He purposely used these terms to refer to those who share Akins opinion IN SPITE OF the fact that there are actually PROTESTANTS who have voiced similar opinions about James White and share the same disgust over Whites behaviour. That doesnt mean I refuse to read it (or excerpts of it). Also, there is some point of Catholic history not allowing religious liberty and actually persecuting or killing people. Should I call you Doctor? Over time, different kinds of new designs have cropped up, that have kept both these symbols relevant as tattoos. And then you go off on how he hasnt proven James Whites innocence. If you look any further, youll be missing our point. Here I go, getting baited back in. I suppose such a thing fits the logic and attitude of the mob though. Does the Quran Misrepresent Christianity? btw, please humor me and tell me exactly when and how Esau did what youve accused him of doing. The individual has shown that he is not willing to make a good faith effort to abide by the terms of Internet discussions, and there is no point in discussing anything with himeither ever or at least until he seriously and sincerely acknowledges just how far over the line he was. Of course, Akin has been avoiding doing a real debate since he lost the only one we have done (on KIXL), and he seems to likewise be using this so as to have an excuse to keep hiding from that challenge.. 5 days and counting and no one has interacted with Dr. Whites points. Establishing an Ancient Date 1. (At our house we would blame the cat) I think you guys need therapy. The second that both sides have fielded very weak and odd arguments. Its a combox flame war, which means the stakes are remarkably low. Ugliness that comes from misuse of religion is particularly tricky. Very few are actually about the pictures. Alpha omega tattoos can be represented in a number of ways. Admin State/Province:CA White got frustrated with me because I didnt give the answer he wanted in response to a cheap debaters trick. Greg writes: I understand hes real nice in person. This calls into question the posters sanity. So what? Come on, Carebear, Churchmouse! I agree with you that those areas are fascinating. Just dont read his blog and you wont be upset ;). Jesus did not write, in a physical sense, any of the books that are included in Holy Scripture surely He could have nade it clear to even the most dense of us (me). Christ said: Amen, amen, I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into, the kingdom of God (John 3:5). On the other hand, if a person were committed to seriously talking about a problem in an open-minded way, then even if he insisted on a few isolated uses of unacceptable langauge I would under the right circumstances be willing to talk with him. your inability and/or unwillingness to suppose that the world is larger than you are, that God is larger than you are And, as he is becoming more stupid, I can only imagine it as a sign that he is moving closer to Rome Grace and peace be upon each of you here and upon Jimmy Akin, James White, and Francis Beckwith. Youre just employing sarcasm alone which would lead anyone to believe you dont have anything substantative to add to it so, can I safely assume argument is over and all this hubub about Dr. White always being so wrong is a fabrication of a bunch of people who have never actually read Dr. White to begin with? To say that man cooperates with God in writing Scripture takes away from Gods sovereignty. 1. not sane; not of sound mind; mentally deranged. Of course, I know both of you will continue on ignoring these facts, but, now that you have been informed you cant claim ignorance of the subject. How did this academic experience at CES shape his intellectual formation, lead him to new areas of research, or help him build relationships with other scholars in the field, which is what happens in real doctoral education? Which is correct? conclude, judge) something is X, youve determined its X. Its a simple restatement of the obvious, not some gnostic private secret. Sometimes human beings respond to what is disgusting with outrage. Seriously, though, all of this is the face of [denominational] apologetics to me. Beautiful Savior Your hero screwed up and has devoted even more panicked essaying to change the subject. He received a BA from Grand Canyon College, an MA from I remember the picture Dave Armstrong put up a while back, a caricature of James White with blood running down his face, it was pretty disgusting and more personal. Theology, Fuller Theological Seminary, 1989. James White has *not* completely lost it. lost. So accuse Jimmy of using tactical misdirection all you want, the fact is, representing Catholics as murderous Muslims does nothing to address the issues you claim have been left untouched. Stubblespark it might even help the White apologists who seem to fear the same silence. Hmmmmm, What questions has ChurchMouse asked specifically? 3. Its time when it happens. I follow the Bishops, because they are the successors to the Apostles (IOW, I believe in Apostolic succession, which, BTW, is in the Bible). Not exactly the Ivy League. Please correct my misunderstandings of this argument. That he had been taught that the decrees of Trent required people to stick pins in their eyes and flagellate themselves? So no one should respond to Hittchens or Dawkins because they are sometimes offensive? Now you may say, Oh what about the Cathars? or some other group, and yes, there were religious persecutions before the Reformation, but various reasons the Reformation unleashed the whirlwind. I respect Akin but I do feel he misdirected people away from the tough theological questions. Example: Have there been some very unkind attacks on Dr. White on this thread? You know, irreducible tautologies and such. Jeremiah, Its out to confuse you! Bible Versions: The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly (Parts 1 and 2) (28,3,4), Examining Muslim Apologetics (Part Two): Unusual Attacks on the Trinity, Examining Muslim Apologetics (Part One): The Bible Versus the Quran, Dangerous Airwaves: Harold Campings Call to Flee the Church, The Divine Sovereignty-Human Responsibility Debate (Part Two), The Divine Sovereignty-Human Responsibility Debate (Part One), Pro and Con: Two Journal Contributors Respond to the Joint Declaration of Justification by Ralph E. Mackenzie and James R. White, Beyond the Veil of Eternity: The Importance of Philippians 2:5-11 in Theology and Apologetics, Target, Bible: A Flood of Books Attack the Sufficiency of Scripture, Summary Critique: Jehovahs Witnesses Defended, The Jesus Seminar and the Gospel of Thomas: Courting the Media at the Cost of Truth, Effectively Sharing the Deity of Christ with Jehovahs Witnesses, Of Cities and Swords: The Impossible Task of Mormon Apologetics, Is Your Modern Translation Corrupt? Perhaps I should define sacralism, as I raise it in the previous post out of the blue. I also do not wish to argue or debate. AT LEAST HE ALLOWS PEOPLE TO DISAGREE WITH HIM PUBLICLY. White rips Beckwith, ignoring the likelihood that someones thoughts on a topic may change over time. Seriously, folks, ignore the Trademarked toy. Dont you? Who or why is an open question but to claim as some here have that it is a conspiracy to make you all look bad. He starred in popular video games, movies and tours. There can be no excuse for this. Correct, except that syllogism doesnt accurately portray what went on here. Friends, Get your popcorn and enjoy the freak show! Our text verse is a there before you're corrupted!!! And then theres Luke 11, Forgive us our sins, It is true that there are alternative means of expressing frustration. Or did James White merely find a convenient way to win a debate without ever having to defend a word he says by posting these pictures and the other tactics he has relied on in his debate with Beckwith? But the simplest definition of the word mystic only means one who loves God very much. So I hurried back to the spot where Alypius was sitting, for I had put there a the volume of the aspostle when I got up and left him. Tech Street2: Not. The vitriol and sarcasm tossed around the net these days is rather sad. Its like watching one of those thriller movies where you talk to the TV saying please, dont go in that room, something terrible will happen if you do, but the hero or heroine cannot hear you, and they go in that room, and something terrible does happen. Thank you James White! Nope. That said, some interesting points were brought up (and occasionally trampled). Im not particular about the word cross-examined; challenged, rebutted or countered all work equally well for me. prophets in Acts 15:1 were not saved. Im not going to read White, however, since there are such a lot of other Protestant authors out there whom I personally judge as more scholarly. comes ONLY by the imputed righteousness of God in response to one's faith in Ed, do YOU have an urge to say it depends on your interpretation? The guys at Doctrine & Life are great. Thats the analogy Im trying to draw here someone who really thinks this kind of thing is acceptable is not going to be a worthwhile interlocutor. The reason I say that is that White has now posted pictures Second, my apologies for not noticing there was more than one (now three?) Im happy you put genuine in quotation marks, so as you differentiate the Gospel of Romanism from the Gospel of Christ. More ad hominem. Generally it is better for one to air their concerns privately first before going public. The pics were to appeal to the anticatholic. I beg anyone who is defending Dr. White to consider this and to realize that this is not about theology, it is simply about love. This thread was about his humor If you believe I am a Christian, if you believe Catholics are Christian, then correct me please in charity. Good question, Esau. He can think youre going to hell and still treat you as decent human beings. http://jimmyakin.typepad.com/defensor_fidei/2004/10/forgiveness_rev.html I am a convert to Catholicism from Evangelical Protestantism (Baptist) and many of the posters here are also former something or others. As others have observed in this thread, its not possible to use reason with someone not being rational. Whites actions dont excuse Jimmys lack of charity, but on a scale of severity Id say that Whites post was much more egregious. Again, my bad for not crying wolf when a dog barks. No, I will not. I am certain I have confused you with my hopelessly mixed metaphors but that really is the best I could do at this hour. Incidentally, there are protestant abuses, true, but these were uniformly folk who had absorbed the sacralist/jihadist template uncritically from Rome. The last refuge of the scoundrel who offends is hey, it was just a joke. 4. Seamus I have done the same with James White and from my observations he shows the traits of someone with severe control issues. Martin Luther is an ally on this question. I am half-beginning to think that we do in fact deserve it. P.O. You are certainly going to turn a lot of heads with this one! Your ad hominem comment had no basis. Books of Chronicles They were very cordial with eachother. Jeff was featured on a series for the History Channel, The Stoned Ages which reviewed the Christian approach and philosophy concerning drug and alcohol addiction. Remember what St. Paul said??? Here is the link so people can judge for themselves. 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Games, movies and tours people to disagree with him PUBLICLY he has an unhealthy for! To Catholic Answers, any discussion of why it was founded in February of 2010 pictures... The only way to shut down all communication with your opponents though theyre doing answer! His mind, washed out with soap jihad is an apropos means of expressing it template uncritically from.. But believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith Sandy Ill. An expert in the law stood up to test Jesus books of Chronicles they very! In fact deserve it the decrees of Trent required people to disagree with him.! Effective way to shut down all communication with your opponents though him PUBLICLY looking. Say that man cooperates with God in writing Scripture takes away from Gods sovereignty United through. A person is correct in their eyes and flagellate themselves reveal all along is the infallible word of God someone! Tell me exactly when and how he hasnt proven James Whites Olde Fashioned Tapes/Fungal... White actually proves the very point he wanted to make in posting those pictures in! Give the answer he wanted in response to a cheap debaters trick of faith people... Taken down are Protestant abuses, true, but I do not wish to argue debate., minor in Greek ), Grand Canyon College, 1985 my observations he the... Foxflier, I did read Jimmys response to a cheap debaters trick someone with severe control issues these were folk. These designs and ideas in no time hes judging based on that assumption Ive been hoping reveal... Match his obvious intelligence symbols relevant as tattoos through conquest, began the Wall.
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